insights! #92: The ups and downs of Veganbox - founder unfiltered! :)

Transcript of the episode:

Joubin Rahimi:

It's great that you're joining us again for a new episode of insights! My name is Joubin Rahimi and today I have Katharina Geib with me. Hi Katharina.

Katharina Geib:

Hello, thanks for the invitation.

Joubin Rahimi:

Yes, my pleasure. Great that you're here, and it's a first for us too, because so far we've only had a startup founder at this kind of stage once. In a completely different industry. And the first is that you even have more than one brand, even more than one company I think, or brand. So I'd like to hand over to you first so you can say a few words about yourself and about the brands.

Katharina Geib:

Yes, gladly. So thank you again for the invitation. Right, I'm Katharina. I founded Veganbox in 2013. It's an online shop, back then exclusively for subscription boxes. And two years ago I founded the second brand, Oh Shanti.

Joubin Rahimi:

2013. You could actually say you're not a startup at all anymore. But you told me you founded it in a really interesting way. Not with a VC in the background – you were actually still employed, right?

Katharina Geib:

Exactly. I worked as an editor in television and was actually happy and content there. It was a lot of fun. Still, at some point I had this idea for Veganbox. That came completely spontaneously too. I was sitting together with my family. We had all just gone vegan and were talking about how difficult it is to get hold of these vegan products and how expensive they are. And then we said: „Ah, one of us should simply start an online shop themselves so that we're at the source.“ Yes, and then that thought wouldn't leave my head, and after a few weeks or so I thought: „Yes, you really should do that. Would you feel like it? A new challenge: why not?“ And then, as I got more and more into it, this idea suddenly came up of releasing a subscription box after all, to inspire people, to show them what plant-based alternatives are out there. Which means they get a box like this once a month where I present vegan products and support them a little.

Joubin Rahimi:

You brought some with you.

Katharina Geib:

Exactly.

Joubin Rahimi:

Let me unpack it while we talk.

Katharina Geib:

Yes, please do.

Joubin Rahimi:

For those who know me, they know I'm a passionate griller, but I'm also gradually switching my diet to something much more conscious.

Katharina Geib:

You can grill vegan too.

Joubin Rahimi:

Yes, that's true. You totally caught me there, that's a stereotype. So let me unpack this, it's probably rustling quite a bit for everyone right now.

Katharina Geib:

Yes, that's the nice thing about a box like this, that you never know what's inside. Unboxing is a first today as well.

Joubin Rahimi:

This is really beautifully packed. That brings us to another topic, because if you want to have service providers do this, packing it so nicely is of course always a challenge. Fulp is love nutz, check nutz. Is that a typical brand too?

Katharina Geib:

That's a startup too, they haven't been around all that long. So we always try to present startups, lots of startups. Exactly, also of course because these are products that people don't know so well yet. It's always a mix of startups but also well-known brands. A bit of everything.

Joubin Rahimi:

Yes, a ginger shot of course too. I drink those.

Katharina Geib:

Yes. Okay.

Joubin Rahimi:

Is it really hot?

Katharina Geib:

Quite.

Joubin Rahimi:

Great. Thai hot?

Katharina Geib:

Depends. I was just in Malaysia. That was very, very hot, you don't quite get to that level. Okay. Yes, great.

Joubin Rahimi:

I'm not afraid of it. If anything, I'll drink milk afterwards. Oh. Plant-based milk.

Katharina Geib:

Yes, quite. Unfortunately we didn't find any this time.

Joubin Rahimi:

Exactly. Cassava. Cassava chips. Mango is good too. Otherwise I've learned something. And these are really exciting things.

Katharina Geib:

Yes, you can taste your way through them.

Joubin Rahimi:

I'd love to. Thank you. Thanks for bringing them… Pancake mix, that's amazing too of course. Have you made it yourself?

Katharina Geib:

Of course. We test everything that goes into the box. It gets tested beforehand.

Joubin Rahimi:

Great. My daughter loves baking more than anything. Thank you very much. That it has to go quickly. My pleasure. This is really amazing. But now we have this great packaging. Do you do it yourselves or have you outsourced it? How do you manage to get it packed so nicely in the first place? It's packed perfectly down to the cubic centimeter.

Katharina Geib:

Yes, it was a long process, let's put it that way. So right at the beginning, when I founded the company, we still packed it ourselves. The very first month actually at my parents' house, in the living room, in the garden, with the whole family, because I wasn't prepared for it taking off so well. I was living in a small apartment in Cologne city center and of course that wasn't possible there. I had planned for 30 parcels a month. That obviously didn't work out, because in the first month we had to – I had to – pack 500 parcels. So I had everything sent to my parents' place at short notice. They were of course delighted when the trucks with palletized goods arrived in our residential estate. And they said: „We can't get through here, move the car aside“ – with 40 tonnes.

Joubin Rahimi:

Right, yes, that was quite something.

Katharina Geib:

Exactly, so we packed with the whole family in the first month. Then I very quickly rounded up university and school students for the next month and rented a garage, actually, because it had to happen fast, until a few months later I had the first warehouse and then also permanent employees who did the packing. Back then I of course still had it all perfectly under control, how it was packed, and had an eye on everything. And then two years ago we decided to hand the whole thing over to an external fulfillment company. And at first that wasn't as nice as I had imagined, because exactly as you say, you no longer had an eye on how things are packed. And the company suffered quite a bit as a result.

For one thing, because the parcels actually-

Joubin Rahimi:

You or the service provider? Or both?

Katharina Geib:

Both. I think this subscription topic, while it's already very widespread by now, is still something relatively new for fulfillment companies, because of course they have classic e-commerce customers where orders get packed and shipped out. For us that's simply a completely different process. The boxes are collected once a month, packed and then wrapped particularly nicely and then go out. And they simply have no experience with that, for the most part. And so we really struggled with orders that were wrong, boxes that were simply packed incorrectly or not packed nicely. Our Google reviews suffered extremely as a result.

Joubin Rahimi:

You also have a very demanding audience, don't you?

Katharina Geib:

Yes, but a lot of items were missing too. Okay, you can do something about that. So not only the packaging – the packaging wasn't really it. It was difficult. And then of course also that feeling of no longer having an eye on it yourself, which you had before. That was difficult. And then at some point it went so far that we found ourselves in the Christmas season with our Christmas orders no longer going out.

Joubin Rahimi:

That's the most important month for you, you told me?

Katharina Geib:

Yes, absolutely. Luckily most of the Advent calendars had already gone out, but the boxes – we also have Christmas boxes, a Christmas bag and so on. So Christmas presents that then didn't arrive on time. That wasn't nice at all.

Joubin Rahimi:

I can imagine. Now you – let me just recap. So you were working in television as an editor.

Katharina Geib:

Exactly.

Joubin Rahimi:

You came up with the idea, or you all came up with the idea and you said: „Come on, I'm doing it now."

Katharina Geib:

Yes.

Joubin Rahimi:

How did it go on for you from there? When was the point where you said: okay, I'm leaving the company now and doing it on my own? Pretty quickly, because as you said – it was that successful? It was very successful from the first month on, so that after the first month I actually already knew, okay, I can't do both. I tried it in the beginning, always after work. I was on my own, after all. Back then my husband wasn't part of it yet. I founded it alone. And so after work or in the mornings before work I had to write to the companies, who would then call me in between while I was on a shoot or at work, which of course didn't go down so well either. And I knew, okay, I can actually already live off this. And that's why. That's always great. That was good. That's also why I wouldn't say I was particularly brave, because I of course did have the security of knowing, okay, it works, I can live off it. And I think in the second month I spoke to my boss, who was able to understand it too and who said: „Listen, go for it, that's great, and you can always come back."

Joubin Rahimi:

Okay, that's of course nice too. Yes. And has it always been – well, this is probably almost rhetorical, but was it always uphill and great? Or were there deep valleys too, and what did you take away from it?

Katharina Geib:

Quite a few. Yes, an emotional rollercoaster, I'd say, these last eleven years. I've often reached a point where I questioned the whole thing, whether I want to keep going, because running a company like this simply takes a lot of energy. I think I had my first low in 2020, when the initial euphoria was slowly wearing off, I'd say. Corona had just started, or was it before corona? It was before corona. Before corona, yes. So it had actually been building up before that, that it was getting less, that subscription numbers were declining and revenue was dropping a bit too. At the same time, of course, we kept hiring more and more people and in the beginning did no advertising at all, because we grew far too fast. We first had to catch up. And then at some point, I think, we missed that moment of saying: „Okay, now I really have to take a look and develop further too." So something has to happen, whether it's advertising or implementing new ideas.

Joubin Rahimi:

Did you ever have it in your head at some point that you thought: I ought to change something, and then put it off? Or did it simply take you by surprise?

Katharina Geib:

Well, the fact that subscription numbers were slowly declining, for example, I of course had an eye on the whole time, and yes, as it goes, you simply think: yes, we'll have to look at it again, maybe another promotion here or maybe run an ad there. But then it creeps up on you slowly, you think it'll be fine, it'll work out. And then at some point it does get more critical. But you managed it, otherwise you wouldn't be here and wouldn't have founded a second brand. Yes, well, as it goes, a challenge like this is always a new opportunity too, simply when you get shaken awake and think again: „Okay, what could I clear up, or what could I create that's new?“ And that's where, for example, the idea came up – the Advent calendars had always been doing very well and they kept growing. So the numbers there kept rising, and then we said: well then, let's do more in that direction and bring more Advent calendars to market. And that's when I had this idea that I immediately burned for and knew: you have to do this, just like back at the founding when the Veganbox idea came – to develop a mindful Advent calendar, a mindfulness calendar, which I think the team was rather sceptical about at first, because it didn't really have anything to do with a vegan diet. I can't eat it. They probably thought: what kind of idea has she come up with this time? But yes, I was convinced of it, and we went ahead and did it, and it was a huge hit. And that's how the second brand came about too. Okay.

Joubin Rahimi:

And that's been around since when? Since 2021? 22.

Katharina Geib:

For two years. I think we released the mindful calendar under Veganbox for two years. That worked too, but I simply wanted to do more in that direction, in the direction of mindfulness, self-care, because it worked and I noticed that it's also something I enjoy, something I'm passionate about and something I felt like doing – after so many years of Veganbox, doing something new again.

Joubin Rahimi:

It's not the same thing either. The target group can overlap, but probably it doesn't really, at least partly, does it?

Katharina Geib:

Yes, it does address a completely different target group, a lot more women too. Yes, conscious living is of course the interface with veganism, but yes, it goes much deeper into personal development and self-care.

Joubin Rahimi:

And you just said that in marketing you had to shift up a gear at some point. And you did that, otherwise you wouldn't be here. And what were the points where you said: that was very successful, and that wasn't?

Katharina Geib:

Well, I think what I really still remember as being really strong was 2020 too, that year when we said we'd do more Advent calendars. That's when we brought an influencer Advent calendar to market for the first time. Which means we picked out an influencer with whom we then released a joint calendar, also under the influencer's brand in collaboration. And that was great.

Joubin Rahimi:

Okay, so social selling works for you?

Katharina Geib:

We also tried a lot of classic influencer advertising, which actually wasn't so successful for us. But releasing this joint product with the influencer works very well for us. We've now also worked with Lola Weibert – I don't know if you know her?

Joubin Rahimi:

No.

Katharina Geib:

A presenter – we released a mindfulness routine box with Oh Shanti. That works great too. Where she basically doesn't just… she promotes it, but it's basically also a bit her own – yes, her own product. Yes, that works very well for us.

Joubin Rahimi:

So do you actually do it as white label then?

Katharina Geib:

No, it really is a joint product and it's of course sold exclusively on our website, but in the end we of course also develop it, just in collaboration with the influencer. And then they're allowed to, they take all of it.

Joubin Rahimi:

That's hugely interesting. In March 2025 I get to talk about social selling at the association, but that's the hardware trade, so a completely different industry. I suspect it's more currywurst and fries there. Although, one can be wrong. People are all quite different. What did Gerhard Schrödinger say? The energy bar at Volkswagen. Well, what nonsense. And there it's a really big topic: is social selling successful at all? We see it in other industries too, where we say it's totally successful, but the how is, I think, the be-all and end-all – just as you say, doing something together with the influencer. That's really labor-intensive. You know it from television. Maybe you know it from television too. There you have the advertisers who blast out an ad and reach a lot of people. But if I go via an influencer and develop the product together with him or her, then that's always time-intensive, isn't it? Or am I simply mistaken and it goes really quickly?

Katharina Geib:

It's not necessarily more time-intensive, I'd say, because in the end the work is the same. It always depends very much on the influencer, because some simply say: „Go ahead, it's fine", and then it's easy. But of course there are also influencers who have very precise ideas, and then it can drag on for a year until a product like that is launched. We've had that too. That's very draining, I'd say.

Joubin Rahimi:

And do you do several of them now? So that you have three, four, five influencers at the same time?

Katharina Geib:

Well, we don't do too much of it, because I think then it's no longer authentic either. We actually only do one Advent calendar per year and then one or two more products spread over the year, independent of Advent calendars. But there are differences there too. We've had really bad experiences as well. You really have to look carefully at which partner you pick. We had one collaboration where the story went online and I don't know, ten orders came in or so. And of course a collaboration like that costs a lot of money too. You probably know that influencers these days charge really a lot of money. And that's a moment where you think: „Oh shit." Did she turn it around? No. It simply stayed… It stayed that way and that was pretty bitter. That was a really expensive affair for nothing.

Joubin Rahimi:

And the person themselves, you do have a contract for it. You have expectations.

Yes, that's how it was, right? Very simple, isn't it?

Katharina Geib:

There's nothing you can do about it. They also say in the contracts that they themselves don't know what will happen. So you can't protect yourself against it. You simply have to do really good research beforehand. It just has to be a fit. You have to look closely at the community of these influencers to make sure it fits. Yes, that's simply the be-all and end-all.

Joubin Rahimi:

I think I'll become an influencer. For what? Doesn't matter. Getting money without having to make any long-term commitments. But you mustn't say that too loudly. Let's say, with us it's like this: when a customer orders something from us, there are commitments about what will be achieved. Not on the business side, but about what we build and what we do and so on. On the business side you have expectation corridors too, but it's simply… But you probably don't make any promises about the profit either, do you? Not the profit, we don't have that under control, but there are models where we go into a revenue share. If we can help change things, help adjust them, then of course we benefit too from how things develop and of course we have an interest in it. But most people don't want that at all, funnily enough.

Katharina Geib:

Oh really?

Joubin Rahimi:

Because they say: „Yes, then I have to give up a percentage." And then you're back at the old model, although I find it quite smart to say: okay, for the main service providers, not for all of them, for the main service providers, up to a revenue share model, and you work together

On being successful. As it is now, we're a cost factor, and then of course the customer tries to pay us as little as possible, and we of course want to be paid properly and make a reasonable profit, as everyone does. But if you align the goals, I think, then a completely different kind of partnership comes out of it.

Katharina Geib:

I'm also a big fan of working with influencers on a commission basis, saying okay, there's a fixed fee and then the rest on commission, but hardly anyone goes for it.

Joubin Rahimi:

Yes, okay. They're still doing too well. Unfortunately. That will change again once there are even more influencers and they have to fight for it. Yes, maybe. There are influencers like iCrimax and so on. Do you know them, the ones who also produce their own soft drinks or go in that direction?

Katharina Geib:

I think that's where the trend is heading with influencers too. They also notice that it works when they release their own product. It works and it's of course a second pillar for them as well. And they don't produce it themselves at all, they come to you or to others when they approach someone.

Joubin Rahimi:

Now you said – I'm coming back to the ups and downs. How do you recharge your energy? Because you're not entirely on your own. You said you do it together with your husband, you have a small team. But in the end you – that's how I perceive it – have the ideas, you set the direction, you make it happen, it's your baby.

Katharina Geib:

Visionary, as I actually sometimes say. Visionary.

Joubin Rahimi:

You can't come into the company and say: everything is rubbish and I don't believe in it anymore. No. Then everyone runs away. But there must be days where you say: wow, this is exhausting?

Katharina Geib:

Yes, absolutely. Last year in particular was one of those. Basically, for me it's always been the case, actually since founding the company, that what mattered most to me was of course that the company runs, because if it doesn't run then I'm not doing well either. But top priority is my quality of life. My husband joined in 2016 when I got pregnant. That's maybe worth adding. That's also why I say we, because we built the company from the start in such a way that we can spend time with the family, a lot of time. For example, we both work in alternating shifts. We split it completely, children and work, so that from the very beginning he also spent time with the children. And we travel a huge amount. So we work from anywhere. As I just said, we were in Malaysia for five weeks and can work from there. So we built it that way. That's also why we switched to fulfillment, for example, so that we have that flexibility. Apart from that, sport helps me a lot. That's my source, where my ideas come from, for example. They come while running. I run a lot and that's actually where the ideas come to me. And I'm also convinced that when your head is full, you make the wrong decisions and become insecure and maybe get caught up in fears, existential fears. And running simply helps me there. It clears my head, and then I get clarity.

Joubin Rahimi:

Okay, great. Now Malaysia interests me. I got to spend two days there recently too.

Katharina Geib:

Two days?

Joubin Rahimi:

Two nights.

Katharina Geib:

A stopover or what?

Joubin Rahimi:

Held five job interviews.

Katharina Geib:

Oh, incredible.

Joubin Rahimi:

Because we're growing – the Timetoact Group is quite large. We already have a location in Malaysia, and as synaigy it's also under consideration to expand there. That's why I was only in Kuala Lumpur for two days. But how did you experience it? You were there for five weeks. I was only there for 50 hours. Not even that.

Katharina Geib:

How did I experience it? Yes, it was an incredible experience. Where were you? You were probably in Kuala Lumpur? No, we flew to Singapore, we spent a few days in Singapore. I thought that was great too. Wonderful city. And then we travelled around a bit, but rather not the touristy places. We actually always try to get into the culture too and take a lot away from it. And yes, I always find it incredible how it lets you recharge, and to show the children too how people live there, what the conditions are like. And what you can achieve if you make an effort, right? I think that's another thing I took away from the trip. If you make an effort there, life is immediately much better for those who make an effort. And sure, some people have more opportunities, but if you don't have that many opportunities – that's what struck me – and you study or you get a scholarship or you teach yourself to program, then suddenly you can do completely different things than your parents, who maybe still grew rice, who came from farming. And that completely changes life. Yes. For a whole family. You know, that's how I perceived things.

Joubin Rahimi:

Were you able to take things away from there for here as well? Where you say: those were great ideas that you want to bring over, or there was a spirit that impressed you, or things where you say: definitely not that?

Katharina Geib:

I definitely met a lot of exciting people there and exchanged a lot of ideas. One person from there, for example, made kombucha himself. Do you know kombucha?

Joubin Rahimi:

Of course.

Katharina Geib:

It's fermented too. And he produced it himself in his house and then delivered it to the hotels there… But he was really… Well, for Malaysia people knew the brand. He built it all up himself. It's simply an inspiration to hear other stories like that. Or one woman in the guest house where we stayed made jewelry herself. They were still at the very beginning. But that was really exciting to see too. She was just trying to build her Shopify shop herself. We were able to help her a bit with that. And yes, things like that are simply cool, exchanging ideas like that, stories like that. Getting to see the other perspectives.

Joubin Rahimi:

Yes, yes, absolutely. Yes, great. We've really taken quite a detour now, from the history to what you can do, social media and influencer marketing. Now we've been briefly in Malaysia. What are your plans for the next few years? Is there anything buzzing around that you can talk about?

Katharina Geib:

Yes, so business-wise the goal is, I'd say, to see. Q4 is very, very strong for us because of the Advent calendars. Q1 to Q3 is always up and down. Easter is strong, but it's really… So consolidating that further. It would actually be lovely if we could sell the Advent calendar all year round. That would be the dream.

Joubin Rahimi:

Easter calendar, Mother's Day calendar, Valentine's Day gift.

Katharina Geib:

Yes, we've tried all sorts of things.

Joubin Rahimi:

It doesn't work as well as the Christmas calendar?

Katharina Geib:

Yes, the Advent calendars, I don't know. It's simply a thing of its own. Nothing comes close. But sure, I always have ideas, and business-wise the goal is simply to build that up more strongly, the business up until the Advent calendars. And growing isn't necessarily the goal, because as I said, I also want to maintain this lifestyle, and the experiences I've had – for example, the more employees, that has been a big challenge for me in recent years, managing people. And so we rather took the route of working more with external partners. That was a game changer, honestly, because managing people almost broke me at one point. And that usually means… Well, if you grow, that just comes with getting a bigger team. You can't fill everything with externals.

So I'm quite happy if we can build up these in-between periods a bit more strongly in terms of revenue and keep our private life as it is.

Joubin Rahimi:

That's great, and I think that's a fantastic way to close. Because typically with us it's always higher, faster, further. It doesn't surprise me now, given that you have the mindfulness box. Or the mindfulness calendar, where you say that achieving work-life balance as a family is really something special. I also think the model is great, where you say – I don't know many people who do that. Funnily enough, one of my first friends from way back, who has the same name as my son, Corvin, founded the watch brand Slow, and he also works in alternating shifts with his wife. So they raise the children equally and always work in alternating shifts and do the same thing and also have a very, very small company. I haven't come across it often, but whenever I tell people about it, everyone is always really interested. Especially for women, it's classically often the case that the women stay at home and the men work. So for them that's often a wish too. But I think for more men as well – to spend more time with the children.

Katharina Geib:

Yes, but many men often think that it's simply not possible in their job. But it is possible.

Joubin Rahimi:

Yes, great. And on that note – it is possible – I'd say: thank you for listening and watching. Thank you, Katharina. I found it incredible to get this insight, including into the family side, and into how differently the whole business can be run. And I hope this is an inspiration and an impulse for you to think differently.

Katharina Geib:

Yes, thank you again. My pleasure. It was lovely here.

Joubin Rahimi:

Same here, thank you for all the lovely things.