#165 - Restructuring without collateral damage: leadership when everything ends

Joubin Rahimi 

Brilliant that you’re joining us again for a new episode of insights! My name is Joubin, Joubin Rahimi, and today with me: Götz Karcher. Hi Götz! 

Joubin Rahimi 

I’m really super happy that you’re here, because your career path is so very special. Before you maybe dive into that: Götz is now, or was until recently, Managing Director of Gasversorgung Süddeutschland. We can turn off a bit there in a moment. And the story of how you ended up here on the couch is through a colleague of ours with whom you worked together. And we actually never lost contact over decades. And the reason we’re happy to welcome Götz here is: Götz is doing something that more and more people will also have to do in the future. Spoiler. But maybe you’d like to start by saying 2 or 3 sentences about yourself. 

Götz Karcher 

Yes, many thanks for having me here and that the contact was established so quickly. I’m really happy to be here. Yes, first of all, my name is Götz Karcher, until yesterday Managing Director of Gasversorgung Süddeutschland. Why yesterday? Yesterday GVS merged with EnBW AG, which is our parent company, and was dissolved. When I started this project, I first had to learn what all that meant, because as you already said, I actually come from e-commerce and at that time I didn’t have much to do with restructuring. And yes, that means that since yesterday I automatically became an EnBW employee so that I can start in a new position in the group in October. 

Joubin Rahimi 

And you were just about to start. 

Götz Karcher 

Exactly, right. How did I get there, or how did I come here, basically? Yes, after graduating, I started in the e-commerce sector at various e-commerce agencies. First a very small one, then a somewhat larger one, then an even larger one, and at the last one I was at, I met your employee, colleague and my former colleague, Olga. I was there for a year and then actually, because I had just gotten married and children were on the horizon and, well, how shall I put it, it was a very challenging time, also in terms of time, because at the company we were really ramping things up a lot—not because we were cutting back, but because things were going up—but we still lost one or two employees, and that was simply a very, very big strain. And then I got the opportunity to go back to my old home region in Hesse, at Mainova AG in Frankfurt am Main, to build an e-commerce team. They urgently needed someone, as I then found out when I was there for the interview, to take on the topic with main responsibility. And within 7 days, I had the first interview, then the second interview, and on the 8th day I signed the contract and started in Frankfurt as team leader "Online Communication" and was allowed to help build this e-commerce team that handled all the digital channels of Mainova AG. I was there for 9 years and then got another opportunity to join the EnBW Group, at Gasversorgung Süddeutschland. In a company that sold large electricity and gas contracts to municipal utilities. And then in 2023 it was decided to integrate the company into the group. And my boss at the time was also needed elsewhere in the group at just that time, although that was not the reason, this is very important, and is now at Erdgas Südwest, which is also a corresponding subsidiary. And I was offered to take on this restructuring, this company closure, as Managing Director. And I found that very difficult, because as someone coming from e-commerce and building an e-commerce team in the sector, closing a company and winding everything down was not really my thing. But in the end, it turned out to be a very, very valuable experience and it also went extremely well, which is why I am allowed to stay in the group. I will then start in another position at another place from 1 October. 

Götz Karcher 

And now the merger was announced yesterday. So I am no longer a Managing Director. The company no longer exists and I am, so to speak, parked in their group until 1 October. 

Joubin Rahimi 

What I find totally fascinating: You actually come from a field where you were always building things up. Building up, faster, more, more, more, more, more, to then take things down. Yeah, that’s a completely different kind of work. I’d really like to dive into that. That’s something where, as some people know from the conversations we have, e-commerce has been booming everywhere, and now it’s shrinking in some places, also because sometimes too much has been done, not in a systemic way, but overpaced, and for some it’s also structurally more difficult in the industry, and then things have to be merged and so on. Exactly, that’s why it’s awesome if you can talk about your experiences in that context. You basically have two topics: First, how did you approach it objectively, and second, how did you deal with this brainfuck and have the resilience that you probably had. I’ll just assume that of you, to really go this path from I always build things up and that’s always great to I start taking things away.

Götz Karcher

Exactly, exactly. That was really a change of perspective, and that was the point I worried about most during the decision phase of whether I wanted to do it or not.

Joubin Rahimi

Were you already that aware, when you took the position, that this decision was coming?

Götz Karcher

Exactly, the decision had already been made. Back then, as division manager, I was working very, very closely with management, so I was able to engage with it emotionally to a certain extent, because it was obviously a process that we – we meaning the division management and the executive management – had worked on very intensively, and essentially we also jointly made the decision to integrate the company into the group. That’s really important. It was not part of the decision to say, okay, we’ll just shut it down and that’s it. That doesn’t even work in the energy sector, because contracts typically run 3, 4, sometimes 5 years into the future. That means you also have to find the right time: when do you actually close the company? So the contracts fit, then the sales are there. Exactly, you also can’t just simply transfer them. It’s all highly complex, but that’s not really the topic. And that means I was division manager and I also knew, okay, I at least have to take care of my team and of course also of how we are going to handle this overall with the company. And then, when Michael Riemmler, my former boss, received a call, so to speak, for another role elsewhere in the group.

Götz Karcher

That hadn’t been foreseeable at all, which is why we didn’t assume, well, okay, we’ll just scale everything down a bit and as a division manager you can lean back a little and say, yeah, Michael will take care of it. We also still have a great relationship. But at some point this decision came up again. That he had the opportunity to continue elsewhere, in another role. Again in a building-up context, because he was actually just as little a restructuring guy as I was, and he still isn’t today in terms of mindset. But then the chairman of the supervisory board and my boss came to me and said: Götz, we need IT until the very end, we need finance until the very end, we need, until the very end, the people who look after the customers, in customer service and in the support around all these contracts – again, a very big part of that is IT. And then it was clear, well, that would fit quite well. And what was also very important was that they said, and we trust you to take this on as managing director, even though you’re not actually the person who usually makes things smaller until they eventually disappear.

Götz Karcher

And after several discussions, where I brought up exactly that: What does your assessment look like? How is this supposed to work? What exactly is the mandate? You really have to knock on wood and give the group real credit. I said at one point or another, if EnBW were BlackRock, everything would have been much easier, because in the process and the project you could see that the group has no processes for closing down a company. Nobody there really knows how that works. Some people had done it once before, but there was no clear guideline on how to do it. For quite a few issues that you simply have to solve, you actually had to completely custom-stitch something new so that it would work. And I did then adopt that mindset and I also have to say, in the time that I did this, it was naturally a zero‑risk culture that I also imposed on myself. Of course, very important: putting employees at the center, because you must not let any employee go too early. That’s important if you have people. There were only 68 employees. If you lose one of them and he’s the only one with the know‑how, to put it very bluntly, then you’re screwed, because at some point the group won’t be able to help you anymore, or in some cases simply can’t help you.

Götz Karcher

That means there was a very precise plan: who should leave when? And the best way to retain people is to give them a perspective and another position. And that worked really well. But it was tough. I have to say, I noticed that especially towards the end, when this new position in the group came up, where I’m allowed to be responsible for growth again. When those talks started, I realized how deeply this had eaten into me – this mindset of absolutely not making any mistakes, being completely objective, and also not being too enthusiastic at certain points. By now, I think I’ve shed that quite well again. You really have to work on that and consciously reset your own mindset: okay, this and this and this is how it needs to run.

Joubin Rahimi

Because the mandate, okay, that was the merger with dissolution. That was the mandate. Was the mandate to cut staff, or was the mandate that it didn’t matter? It was so big in terms of staff that they said, we have such high turnover anyway, if it fits, it fits, if not, then not. What were the guardrails there?

Götz Karcher

That is understandable. And the question, that is really good. And I really have to sing a song of praise to the corporation, because they did not give exactly that kind of directive about what would happen with the employees. Not only the supervisory board, but all the way up to the executive board, whom I was then also able, had to, was allowed to meet several times, it was very clear: We will take care of our employees. Of course nothing must happen, no catastrophes. Everything is supposed to run very cleanly from a financial perspective. But for risk reasons we decided to continue this business elsewhere on a different scale. So that was important too. It was supposed to be sorted out very precisely: What is value-creating, what will we continue, just in another place. And only a very few things were actually abandoned, and always under the premise: The employees are important. Naturally, this also meant that you do not have risks, because you do not lose any employees, ideally, whom you need to prevent these catastrophes. But from the beginning all the works councils were involved, both in the group and also at Gasversorgung Süddeutschland, and right up to the executive board it was very clear: We will take care of the team. And that worked extremely, extremely well, with very few exceptions.

Götz Karcher

So it is really under 5% of the employees who did not find a direct follow-up position. And of those who have a new job, so those, clearly, within the group, over 90% of them moved into the group. And that is of course perfect for everyone involved, because on the one hand it shows for the group: well, they are attractive, they took care of people. And on the other hand, if you place, I’ll say, or hand over an employee from GVS somewhere into the group, then the risk that they will no longer do anything is very low. And we really had some people who had already moved, and the new managers they had then released them 50%, in some cases really for several months even 100%, for this project. We are shutting down gas supply for Germany, but we are doing it very, very cleanly. And yes, it is indeed a merger with dissolution, restructuring, but financially and especially from the perspective of the employees it is an absolute success story.

Joubin Rahimi

Did you know at the beginning that it would turn out this way? So were you able to communicate that already, or was that something that developed over time?

Götz Karcher

No, so that was a very important point that our chairman of the supervisory board also initiated directly. We said, of course we will analyze the question: does it have to be done? And if so, how are we going to do it? But we will involve not just the works council as early as possible, whom we have to involve anyway, or some key people, but as directly as possible also the team. And it was a few weeks, probably even days, if I remember correctly, after the decision: we are doing this. The company will be closed. We did not yet know exactly at what point in time, because as I said, there are contracts that run for up to 5 years, and then you have to look at what is basically the best time, because of course you have to fulfill the majority of this FED rule and you do not simply have a migration for all of them. And then the team was called together, and then it was talked about very openly, that we said: the decision has been made, the company will be integrated into the group. There will also be no guarantee, that is, no follow-up guarantee for the jobs.

Joubin Rahimi

Which means something that naturally first triggers uncertainty.

Götz Karcher

A big shock, totally. Yes, you really have to say, the mood was not so great. And then, at the same time, we also made the promise that we would take care of everyone, that we naturally also expect a corresponding performance in return and that we, as GVS together, have to integrate the company into the group. And I said especially to my IT people, who, in principle, were the ones who worried the least, because if you are an IT person then you can get a new job relatively easily. But I also said to them: the most important thing we have to do now is an absolutely excellent job in this project, because that is the best way to show that all of us are needed in the group. And that is actually how it is. I have not had to or been able to place anyone with pressure, so to speak, in order to then say: yes, this is indeed an employee.

Joubin Rahimi

Just take him.

Götz Karcher

Yes, you somehow have to. So all employees, whether internally or externally, applied quite normally. Of course, in one place or another I then had conversations, not to pitch them or to pretend something to anyone. That would make little sense anyway, if they then transfer into the group and I am still there, and later it turns out that I somehow planted them a rotten egg. But simply to discuss: how do we have to do this? How does this service model work? People get a little backpack with them and there are a few things in it. But all of that is also exactly planned: when do they have to do what, for example shut down servers, deactivate some cloud solutions. Where you only have one or two employees who can then do that. That will only work in half a year. We have to find a special solution if someone already wants to move now but is still needed next year, and so on and so on. So you really have to say that all the managers, and thus the entire group, did a really great job and took on their responsibility. And I have a story about that which really, really made me happy.

Götz Karcher

There was one manager, a very high-ranking manager, very important, who had only been with the company for a few months. I think it was 3 or 4 months, and who fought so hard for the employees of GVS in the course of such an offer, basically. She knew: okay, I need one person for the task. I heard there is someone. We did not even know each other yet. But after the first contact there was really full commitment to the company, essentially, and to a company she had joined only a few months earlier. Really great thing. Up to what is called an L1 level, so directly under the executive board, people drove from Karlsruhe to Stuttgart and took a whole day. And these are all people who have around 800,000, 900,000 people under them. And driving from Karlsruhe to Stuttgart is no fun at the moment, you have to say, with the highway.

Joubin Rahimi

Another new construction site again?

Götz Karcher

No, it is the construction site there near Pforzheim.

Joubin Rahimi

As always.

Götz Karcher

I do not think that will ever be finished either. But they really, really put in a lot of effort for this. And that is also one reason why it went so well. So a rate of over 90% in a restructuring.

Joubin Rahimi

That is really top. The executive board stood behind it, the L1 team was involved, everyone knew there was an opportunity, but there were no guarantees.

Götz Karcher

Correct.

Joubin Rahimi

That was also an issue. And you had to keep the person at the company for as long as possible until the job was done. That’s the challenge. That was also something where, with the new parent company, it was like, okay, the person is already switching employers, but is still partially available to me. I think those are the kinds of things you need. 

Götz Karcher 

Yes, and it makes a huge difference, that initial communication, that it was very clear: person XY or also role XY. Of course you sometimes have people who can complement each other a bit or who have complemented each other in the past and can also do that in the future, so that, okay, from the two of you we need one for such-and-such a length of time and the other one a bit longer. And then of course you also have the challenge that you have to look closely, because they are all applying for the same position in the group. They all naturally have more or less the same concerns. They still have to do the same job. And you could always notice it when employees then moved on. A bit earlier than planned or exactly to plan, that it is such a very ambivalent situation for the people who are there and who stay. Because on the one hand it’s great, a colleague has found something new. So it’s not only great for them, but also the proof: well folks, now it’s the 10th, the 12th, the 15th person who has found something within the group or somewhere else that fits really well. So that means there will also be something left for me, even if I have to wait longer, but on the other hand of course it also means a constant further intensification of the workload. 

Götz Karcher 

There were fewer of them, sure, but whether in a system like the one we have there are 6,500 contracts that are all highly complex and they run through automatically, or whether there are 400, that doesn’t make any difference for the person who has to process them, and in that respect it was simply like this: you didn’t necessarily always get more tasks in terms of sheer volume, but there were just more and more different things. 

Joubin Rahimi 

So probably a lot broader then. 

Götz Karcher 

It became broader and broader. It was exactly the same for me personally. Since 01.1.2026 I was basically on my own. There were still two employees for whom we arranged a kind of transition period, and they also relieved me a lot in many areas. But no matter what came up at some point: Mr. Karscher, Mr. Karcher, there was only one, meaning only my phone number and my email address, which were listed on the web. Whatever came in all landed with me. That’s how it always was. 

Joubin Rahimi 

What could you really take from project management, where you had previously worked, into this whole restructuring/turnaround topic? 

Götz Karcher 

What I think was also a very important point—and that had already been really important to me as a project manager or generally as a colleague—you have to take care of the individuals as well, without losing sight of the fact that you also have a team that still has to function as a whole. Especially in a situation like a restructuring, you have people who immediately have existential fears, really down to the bone. There was a colleague who had firmly planned to move. And not in a bad way or anything, just within a multi-family building, from the apartment, I don’t know, in the middle up to the top floor or something like that. I don’t remember exactly—a small move, but it was a bigger apartment, a nicer apartment. 

Joubin Rahimi 

Costs a bit more money, and I can afford it if I lose my job. Right. 

Götz Karcher 

And then she didn’t do this move. And that was shortly after this was even communicated to the team for the first time. And it was completely clear, folks, it will take at least another three and a half years until this happens. And we’re at EnBW, there’s plenty to do and, and, and. We will do everything for you. And she still didn’t do it. And that’s despite having a husband and child. And she also worked very, very closely with me. And we talked a lot on the phone. Because you have to get people to that kind of level where they can still do their job and where you personally can have a clear conscience. I only started taking care of my own future when almost everything had been sorted out for the employees, because I said to myself, hey, you have to put in that kind of effort, and only then can I sleep well if hopefully they can all sleep well. And that’s something you need: that kind of effort and commitment that people can also feel somehow—exactly where they get it from, you don’t really know. 

Joubin Rahimi 

You’re the last one to leave, right? Basically, you’re the last one to go off the ship. 

Götz Karcher 

Absolutely. 

Joubin Rahimi 

Not every captain does that, as we’ve carefully observed. 

Götz Karcher 

There was some kind of anniversary about that recently, I saw. But it really is the case that you need a good mix between being a manager—having everything under control, everything is safe, people can rely on you—and also that they can rely on you personally, without you letting yourself get driven crazy by one or another hypochondriac, let me put it that way, if there had been one—there weren’t any, but it could happen. Because there are, what was the phrase Holger used there, time thieves. 

Joubin Rahimi 

Exactly. 

Götz Karcher 

You have to make sure they don’t steal too much of my time and energy. And that’s how you manage it when you’re in a position where you can strongly influence things in general but not everything individually, that you get people to calm themselves down instead of stirring each other up, and also hold them accountable so that what needs to be done actually gets done. 

Joubin Rahimi 

That already counts for a lot, not stirring things up. 

Götz Karcher 

Yes, of course that’s typically what you assume, that’s the biggest risk, that all of a sudden you have a rebellion there or, to stay with the captain metaphor, a mutiny. Didn’t happen. There were, I think, two such uprisings, let’s say, typically of course – or logically, of course – from those who didn’t yet have solid prospects and therefore security, very clearly. But you could handle that quite well, and you came out of it well, I’d say, because you still had the rest of the crew who then also said: Look, ABC is already gone. He’s still here, but he already has a new contract, so to speak. Let’s not abandon the rest of us. And in that respect, that’s something you have to get onto very early. You have to take care of the people, no matter what kind of manager you are. Yes, of course, I always – I come from the Frankfurt area. Ackermann said, return on capital doesn’t fit. We have to, I think, slim down staff by 10% or 7%. Lawnmower method, throw people out everywhere. You can do it that way, if you drive into the garages in the S‑Class and take the elevator upstairs and are only surrounded by people who are not affected by these cuts, who then always tell you: Yes, that’s good, that’s good, that’s the right way to do it. 

Götz Karcher 

You simply can’t pull off a project like this without the people. Absolutely zero. You have to be open. And that again all the way up to the executive board. Chairman of the supervisory board right at the very front. He was very, very open and loyal right from the start. And as soon as there was new information, even if it was sometimes not so pleasant, like for example, okay, we’re actually doing this a year earlier than the maximum timeframe would be. There are 1000 reasons for that as well, it was absolutely right. We then went out to the team and said, that’s how it is and there’s no way around it. But we won’t abandon you. 

Joubin Rahimi 

It’s good when you have those possibilities. 

Götz Karcher 

You have to be allowed those freedoms. So, again, knock on wood for everyone who has to do this, and big praise to the corporation. For me directly it was first the management, then above that the supervisory board. Then I was speechless, because then I was management, and up to the full executive board. Ensuring it was socially responsible and that it was good and appropriate for the people always had very, very high priority. Now as a risk manager you can of course say, yes of course, it’s really expensive when a contract like that goes down the drain. 

Joubin Rahimi 

If you suddenly have 60 people at once speaking really badly about a company and stirring things up internally, that’s also bad. 

Götz Karcher 

Yes, yes, or in fact a contract without a penalty clause. The revenues associated with such contracts are so high. The margin is small, but the revenues are so high that when some contractual penalties kick in because you fail to deliver something or make some other mistakes, that immediately destroys the company. That was also the case, and reducing that risk was actually the reason for integrating the company. Or integrating the business models. And if you then, well, lose just one of these contracts – in the beginning it was over 3000 contracts with over 3 billion in revenue – if you drop one of them, it pays off very quickly. Absolutely clear. But that was never an argument we actually had to use. It was always about the people. 

Joubin Rahimi 

Then a completely different question: Would you do the job again? That’s one of the unwritten questions. 

Götz Karcher 

No, no, that question has come up quite often already, which is why I’m smiling, because there are two answers to it. I would do it again if I were in the same situation back then as I was at the time. I decided to do it because I said, I’ll take on that challenge and it’s also an opportunity for me. And now I know that it has paid off for me, among other things, and that it can go really well. But I wouldn’t do it again now. In the last project meeting with the team – in the group you have 1000 people who work on this, and in the end you have a core team of 10 people. I said: Dear colleagues, we’ve done it. And if someone asks me who was involved, then my first counter‑question is: why they want to know who did it. Because if someone wants to know who knows how to handle something like this so that they can do it again, then I won’t name anyone anymore. If someone asks me, well, this is a success story, we want to know who worked on this great project, then I’ll name them all. 

Götz Karcher 

Because that’s exactly the point, you have – you mentioned this right at the beginning – really difficult situations psychologically and in terms of your own effectiveness. Because on the one hand it’s nice that you can look after individual fates, but it also weighs on you. And you have people who struggle with it so much, and if you can’t let that bounce off you completely, then it’s really, really tough during that period. And during this process, as I said, for the new position, where I get to take care of something great again, I got feedback from the assessment. I had never heard anything like that before. They said to me, you presented it and technically it was all great, everything was super, everything you need was there. But you were like a robot. That’s not how I know you at all. That was, of course, said by people who knew me. And then I sat there and thought, oh, no one has ever said that to me before. But a week earlier I had had a supervisory board meeting and that was only about: no risks, everything went well, everything is on track. These and these issues came up, they were dealt with and closed, tick the box. 

Joubin Rahimi 

So basically in a mode of: get through as quickly as possible, keep things as easy as possible for people. 

Götz Karcher 

There the relationship is good too, it’s really great, no question, but it was a completely different mode. And unfortunately I only realized that after the assessment or during the assessment. So much for enthusiasm, motivation and somehow shining. Thank God things are going downhill again. 

Joubin Rahimi 

Now to finish I’d like to ask one more question. You can also elaborate a bit: where you’d actually go, if you were to do it again, what would you do better? Now you’re in a different situation, but what are – you can take that or also a mix of that question with: what are your learnings from it that you would give to a second self who is now facing the same thing? 

Götz Karcher 

Okay, what would I do better? What would I do better? Or what would be tips? 

Joubin Rahimi 

It doesn’t have to be what’s better, it can also just be tips. 

Götz Karcher 

Yes, well, I really do think that at the very least it would be very difficult to do this with more success. Which is why I find it a bit hard to say what could be done better. Because on the one hand, there are two key points. The subject of the employees, dissatisfaction and motivation, and that nothing went wrong, that’s one thing. That is extremely, extremely important. But what also comes on top of that, because that’s how it was, is that financially, compared to what was planned—because of course you think: I’ve got restructuring costs here galore—that this didn’t materialize. Over the last three and a half years during which this project ran, the company was similarly financially successful, or in part even more successful, than in the years before. That also has specific reasons and it’s not easy to reproduce. But that’s why, as I said, I find it hard to say: what could you do better there. 

Joubin Rahimi 

But then you can say, what was the— 

Götz Karcher 

But exactly, life is there for them. The tips that are really, really important: this open, clear (so not somehow watered‑down), truly open and clear communication. Dear colleagues, dear team, this is how we are here, and it’s been decided that by probably this point in time, maybe like this, and this is what we are going to do. And we cannot offer you any security. That’s also something we have decided. But we’re doing this for you and we expect that back from you. Very, very important. And then actually the tip that doesn’t immediately come to mind, because this takes the whole thing a step further: You cannot say it often enough. You cannot be on site often enough, ideally, and repeat things, repeat them like a broken record again and again. Even if you’ve already said a thousand times: this colleague, that colleague, that colleague, they all ended up there. We’re having conversations, we’re working here and there on special solutions. We did it like this for person X, so that they already have a new contract but are still working with us. So also always repeat these things that are positive, and keep saying: Folks, if anything comes up, come to me, come to me. 

Götz Karcher 

And so on and so on. Sometimes that gets lost, because you kind of say to yourself, I’ve already said it a thousand times. 

Joubin Rahimi 

No, this is a thousand and one. 

Götz Karcher 

Exactly, you mustn’t ease up, because those bad feelings and doubts in the people, they’ll show up at some point too. 

Joubin Rahimi 

They’re there all the way through anyway. 

Götz Karcher 

They’re always there, and they’re only gone once they really are gone. And only when the security is there—"I have a new contract there"—only then is the subject really done for that person. And there’s also this point, which is now, for us, in quotation marks, e‑commerce‑shaped people, a bit difficult, and for me in the energy industry a very, very hotly debated topic. You really have to be on site. GVS was almost a virtual company. We started back then in the COVID period. Then we also had a management offsite, and then they said: "Yeah okay, let’s test today, Tuesday, what it looks like if we send everyone from the office home, to see: does this all work?" And we never came back from this test for one and a half years. And it was like that in the wind‑down phase as well. We had a policy: we can, so the teams can come as often as they want. There was still a workplace for everyone. That was a luxury. And we didn’t make it mandatory. With one exception. Once a month we have a special event. 

Götz Karcher 

That’s the Come Together. That’s our office day for everyone. Everyone has to be there. Except of course if they’re off with a sick child. And then we always made sure there was that physical presence. Repeating like a mantra: what’s our status now? A short interim report. Something from the supervisory board. Colleague XY is with us. And if possible, always a small event so that, on top of what you always have to say anyway, you also come closer together again. And you have to stick with that. Plan it through consistently over the three years: we meet 12 times, and then at least there’s mini‑golf or bowling. We go to an escape room, whatever. Maybe also barbecue, but you need a special event to keep the team together, so that you actually have the conversations and the figurative grip on people’s ears that you need. And that unfortunately doesn’t work remotely. 

Joubin Rahimi 

I think most people have already gained those insights. 

Götz Karcher 

So once a month you really do have to meet. 

Joubin Rahimi 

Yes, that’s good. And I also found something you said really interesting: that you had to keep saying it over and over. That was just a reminder moment for me. Because yes, a person is in their own moment, in their own situation, and that’s not your situation. And you may say it, and it wasn’t their situation then, but it comes up for them at some later point. 

Götz Karcher 

And you also have—and it’s certainly like that for you as well, that’s how I try to live it too—in flat hierarchies you already have your ear quite close to the people. And you have a feeling for how they’re doing right now. You ask about it and I would have… and so on, but you do get quite a good sense of it. Nevertheless, as soon as you’re a manager, there is a distance. If you’re one level further up, it gets even more. And at the latest for me as a managing director, although I practically grew up from within the team and was a familiar face and a good colleague and all that, it doesn’t matter. It’s still new and there is a distance, and then distrust is directed at you. At least in such a phase. 

Joubin Rahimi 

The role, right, maybe the role. 

Götz Karcher 

Yes, of course. Then you also see, well, Götz gets his directives from above, he has to enforce this now. People know he doesn’t have a new job yet either, he wants one too. And that was also something my colleagues really appreciated: when they asked, "So what about you?" and "Have you already…?", and I said, "No, I haven’t yet. There are some ideas, but don’t you worry about that. That’s my problem, I’ll take care of you first." As always, fortune favors the brave; you also have to be able to handle some crap. But in combination it worked out great. And that’s the tip: that’s the way you should try to do it again and hopefully have similarly good luck. 

Joubin Rahimi 

Great. So, to be the last to leave the ship, communicate that, and stick to what you communicate. And that’s actually no matter whether you’re building up or winding down—I think those are also core traits that are absolutely crucial. Götz, thanks for your time. I think we’re now well over 30 minutes, I’d guess, right? A long episode, a lot in it. Thanks for watching and listening. And if there are questions or needs, just join the exchange, just write them down below in the comments. And certainly, based on how I’ve gotten to know Götz now, there will be answers there too. 

Götz Karcher 

Definitely. Thank you very much. 

Joubin Rahimi 

Thank you.